According to the Product Family Life-Cycle Guidelines for Visual Basic 6.0 published by Microsoft, mainstream support for VB6 will cease by end of this month. Although it is common for a product to have its natural lifespan, I think this should come a little bit later. They should have given developers more time to migrate over to .NET (or VB.NET for that matter).
I believe VB6 is still widely used and quite prominent in the industry. Although, some people labeled it as the "kid's language", I believed it has contributed to a lot of useful applications in the industry - some powering banks and other critical applications. VB.NET is like a "grown-up's" language now. Every VB developer will need to know OO (which is a good thing) when they start with VB.NET.
VB.NET is a good advancement over VB6 and it will kick more @$$e$ when it hits Visual Basic 2005 - the .NET Framework 2.0 version. It will be on par with C# with operator-overloading, iterators and generics - a first class citizen of .NET.
Anyway, the news doesn't really impact me - we still have apps running on VB3 and the customers are happy with it. But if you want to do something for good-old VB6, voice it out here.
48 comments:
Maybe should opensource VB6.
Since they're not gonna support or sell it anymore, put it up for the public to maintain it themselves.
That would imply Microsoft cares about its customers. The truth is, they really don't. Hardcore Microsoft devotees learn this the hard way, sooner or later.
Perhaps, we should try to understand the term “Look forward” and “End of Life”.
Although sometimes the method looks brutal but if we look at the other angle, isn’t that is the only way to ask people to stop looking back?
Obiwan, Microsoft do care for their customers.
If I have invested 10 years on 2 million lines of code in VB6 and then somebody tells me i have to either start a new project and rewrite from scratch or stick with old vb6 and unable to upgrade my project/code to use newer technology or vendors stop supplying updates to buggy components i use because VB6 is dead, I will curse Microsoft to eternity.
Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has not done any serious projects.
Although sometimes the method looks brutal but if we look at the other angle, isn’t that is the only way to ask people to stop looking back?If a customer wants and/or needs to use VB6, and has legacy systems which would be expensive to rewrite with .NET, wouldn't you say they should have some avenue for support? Microsoft only cares about its bottom line, not its customers, nor you. It can afford not to. After all, you're already locked in into their monopololistic stranglehold. That's the danger of relying on a single proprietary vendor for your software infrastructure. Be smart, go open source for infrastructure. At least you won't have the rug pulled from under you. If you look at that petition page, about 2000 people learned this the hard way. Microsoft needs to sell some new software licenses, and you must obey!
Very interesting exchange here and as usual Obiwan and Oysterman provided some thought provoking comments. I came from a business, user and technical background and now being part of a large SI who faced key customers every day has taught me to view things in many different perspectives and angles.
Oysterman,
if the business environments and systems has stayed static, we would still be cavemen, writing snail-mail (didnt the entire
postal system and process take billions and many years to build ?) and paying thousands of dollars in notes and coins and
buying and selling shares in script forms. The crux is that business environments change because business processes and
modelling change and systems need to change to keep up with it. If it remained static, we would still be in a monolithic environment with single stand-alone disconnected machines or still using CICS and mainframes. Businesses in the end, must
justify the need to change or re-build systems and these justifications come from business needs and not IT ones. Technology
will generally evolve and so does systems. It doesnt have to move in an entire piece per se. It can take a piece-meal approach. This is the reason why CICS is still prevalent today and any enterprise product worth its salt must be able to provide adapters to talk to CICS. Of course, if you choose to send snail-mail, you still can BUT you pay more :) and not just
in terms of wasted time and resources but in loss of productivity too...and if businesses doesnt want to have systems that enable collaboration to bring more to the value-chain, it will still survive...it just won't grow.
I dont agree with your statement of
> If I have invested 10 years on 2 million lines of code
> Anyone who thinks otherwise obviously has not done any serious projects.
This is a relative arbitrary number you had put up. So if I invested 9 years and 1.9 million lines, does that mean I had not
done serious project work ? Of course, I know what you mean :) BUT this is all relative. I had done $5000 system for a poor
dentist that took a lot of coaxing and also involved in multi-million dollar projects in the enterprise that meant was a drop in the ocean for them because its shareholder's money ;). It is all relative...and I believe it will take a lot more effort to convince the poor dentist to upgrade then to ask the enterprise CIO to do the same.
Obiwan,
> That would imply Microsoft cares about its customers. The truth is, they really don't. Hardcore Microsoft devotees learn this the hard way, sooner or later.
> Microsoft only cares about its bottom line, not its customers, nor you.
Do you have the notion that Microsoft, your neighbourhood grocery vendor or heck, even your personal doctor cares about you
?...and I mean that in the nicest way :) People who believe that is obviously living in another world or they really have one hell of a personal doctor who doesnt charge for anything. Tell me or show me a business that doesnt care about its bottom line and I will show you where the next bankruptcy and debt pile-up will happen. Of course, Microsoft cares about its bottom line and it SHOULD ! Microsoft is still one of the best-run businesses of modern history and it is because it cares about its bottom line. At the risk of sounding philisophical, someone has got to pay us to put food to feed our families, right ? IBM,
Oracle, BEA is doing its utmost to watch its bottom lines too...and so should SUN ;) if it wants to stay competitive and on top. General Electric, Coke, Boeing, NIKE all cares about its bottom line too. This is an end by itself. Making it seem that
it cares about its customers a means to THAT end..and its monopolistic approach ? Trust me, it is another mean to THAT end
and I would bet that GE and NIKEor any business will love to be in that position too. You said it like it was the most evil thing in the world ;). Granted, the world is far from perfect. Unless we havent learnt our lessons from the crumbling socialist societies of history, capitalism is still here to stay, at least in our lifetime. Unless the next revolutionary Karl Marx comes along again, this is what we have and we have to learn to accept it. Period. :)
Microsoft makes a tonne of money and gives to back to society as well...and so has IBM (I stopped short of saying the other companies ;)) Many schools in poorer China and other countries have benefitted from Microsoft-related charities. Is it a marketing-related activity ? I dunno...Do you care ? I know the millions of poor Chinese student beneficiaries who dont. Are we in a position to judge ? I will not pull my trigger so fast. In business, it is a dog-eat-dog world; In politics, it is just
the reverse ;)
Redhat makes a lot of money from OSS and it gives it back by contributing products it buys back into OSS.
Although both approaches are different, they are both still watching their bottom lines. The end is the same. They just chose different paths to achieve that end...and that end ensures that environments will change, businesses doesnt remain static, systems and technology will evolve and food is still put on the table so mouths can be fed. Sure, it is not the most perfect thing in the world; BUT it is definitely not the most evil thing I have come across.
I've informed one of my sales manager about the news and I was expecting him to be upset since 80% of his team's product were using VB6.
His response was, "Ahhh... That's a good opportunity for us. I can see version 8 of our product in VB.NET coming." When I asked him, "You aren't upset with it?", he replied, "Heck! We still have VB3 running so what is there to be upset about?"
I admire his optimism and business views and he just doesn't go Rat-Tat-Tat like some people.
His team were more than happy to upgrade to the new language. They were very excited about it and have already started to learn it on their own.
To me, the choice is there. If the business calls for it, then do it.
Btw, we still have Delphi 2 applications too. ;)
Hmmm...I heard Ford doesn't support Model-T any longer as well... I am sure Ford doesnt care about its customer base... ;-)
While it may seem that the ONLY way to care is open sourcing it, the truth is far from it. Care and open source are worlds apart, especially when there is money to be made. Open source FUDamentalists will learn it sooner or later, afterall, the world doesnt go around only writing C/C++ code does it ;-)
Cheers
1. Outsource/external house would love to have your system obsolete so they can charge you again rewriting your system from scratch in another language.
2. In-house developers part of a corp would hate to have to rewrite everything because it is a waste of time and resource.
If things were that simple then I guess VB6 MVPs wouldn't be screaming about it.
Not all business processes change all the time. Different applications, different requirement.
No point making excuse to condone Microsoft's behaviour.
Softwaremaker:
I have rarely seen Microsoft ever "innovate", despite their ever-frequent claims they do. What MS churns out as "new" software is just some rehash of someone else's idea (.NET is certainly "inspired" by Java), reinvented into a pale, poor imitation and marketed as "superior", while at the same time trying to eliminate all competition, including the original product they ripped off the idea from (see Netscape).
Software should improve, true. But the marketing machine of MS would like you to think every iteration of their products is an "improvement". It's not. A lot of it is simply a new version for the sake of reaping a whole new round of cash from the suckers...uh...customers who've invested far too much into MS tech and can't afford to replace and rewrite systems. Then there's those really profitable MCSE exams which you have to take with each upgrade...
Microsoft is a monopoly that illegally abused its position. That's an undisputed legal fact. Therefore it needs to be considered differently from other companies. Usually, a company must care about its customers to ensure they remain happy, and their bottom line remains in the black. But a monopoly doesn't need to care! It can abuse its customers all it likes, and it still will reap their profits. Vendor lock-in is horrific from the point of view of the customer.
Hmmm...I heard Ford doesn't support Model-T any longer as well... I am sure Ford doesnt care about its customer base... ;-)
Firstly, a this is a false analogy. If you happen to own a rare Model-T, you can always fix and maintain it yourself. In fact that's what most antique car enthusiasts do as a hobby. With closed source software, you CAN'T do self-maintainance, regardless of whether the original manufacturer is supporting it or not.
Secondly, well perhaps MS wants to discontinue VB6 support, and maybe they *should*. I don't know, I'm not a VB user. Azizi, you should go tell your analogy to that horde of angry MVP's who want their VB6.
All I can say is, don't bet your software infrastructure on a closed-source, proprietary and monopolistic vendor like Microsoft. You'll suffer in the end, just like those poor MVP blokes suffer now.
And don't forget, Microsoft Visual C++ is still supported/developed even till VS.NET
I would love to see them drop VC++ off their product line and use the same rational/logic they used for moving VB6 developers to VB.NET
Even though from business point of view I think VB6 should stick around longer, but for the good of the industry, it's time for VB6 to go, simply because it is abused too much over the years and caused glut in the software development employment market. :-D
I would hate to be part of a flame war here and have really made no effort to start one. (?)
My earlier comments is, more or less, telling how businesses ran in the past and present. I did not make any reference to whatever technology is better, whichever company is better, whichever business model is better. This is not for me to judge, and neither should anyone. Our 2c comments and opinions should be worth just the way it is --- Just 2c. I just merely stated the facts behind the truth about businesses and the implicit references why businesses need to do what it has to do to survive. This may be too much truth for some people to handle :) Unless your business that you have spent so much time and investments on is in the danger of falling apart or you are struggling to get that last piece of breath of air to get into your lungs, the instinct of survival is something that everyone has. Some just do it better than others. While you may not agree with the fact that your favourite politician will *destroy* his rival just that he can still keep his party posts, I suspect that many people will do the same if they are put in a similar position.
Anyways, like I said --- I am arguing for the sake of businesses and the sake of moving forward. You can substitute Microsoft in my earlier post with any legal business entity such as IBM and the point inference in my earlier comments would still be the same.
Dear Oysterman,
Yes, I agree with you that not all Business Process change all the time, thats why we still have CICS and mainframes ;) and like I said, even if it changes, not all businesses need to change their system. BUT if they want to stop writing snail-mail and use email instead, they will definitely need to invest in time and resources for your business to "upgrade". It is a "choice" decision. CICS and mainframes and VB6 Legacy wont evaporate into thin air. Like Firedancer had said and I can attest to, I have seen many VB3 apps still running in the enterprise and no, the software police will not arrest you if you are still using Excel 97 :)
> 1. Outsource/external house would love to have your system obsolete so they can charge you again rewriting your system from scratch in another language.
> 2. In-house developers part of a corp would hate to have to rewrite everything because it is a waste of time and resource.
You are right in saying that things are NOT that simple. Now, lets see it from a different perspective, do u know how many people and engineers in the industry there are or would be today that are sitting at home unemployed (if) those 2 above points == true ? Do you really subscribe to the theory that many employees/engineers are readily picking up new skills because they are cool or is it because they have a family to feed. I suspect the latter holds true in many cases and if it doesnt in the younger folks, they will grow to embrace it :)
While many businesses will *LOVE* to make lots of money without investing new ones, this model doesnt last long. Just ask any of the businesses that appeared in TIME, Newsweek, Fortune, Harvard Business Review, etc etc. It is foolish to expect any system to reman "AS-IS" when businesses move ahead in time. The goal of every business is to build an agile system BUT not all companies can do so.
I dont subscribe to the theory no one falls into the above 2 categories you describe. If so, money will stop moving around and everyone will be out of a job. The truth is --- Everyone and every business is constantly evolving and changing itself. One may not be in that category in the IT-perspective, but one should be providing a service in other aspects or else, one *really* should question where is one's value in the entire equation...
The point is that some of you are *still* not getting the points of my post. It has got nothing to do with which VB is better, whether open or closed is better. Read it "AS-IS" and all I am saying is that this is all in the name of business and politics. It is everywhere around us. While many of us (and that includes me) dont like it, this is what we have and we have to learn to accept and live with it. We can whine and cry about it or we can learn a new skillset or move to OSS to make ourselves relevant...so we can put food on our table to feed our family. Like the old Chinese children song, everyone will fall, you have a choice to brush yourself and pick yourself up and stand strong. Crying and whining about it sure doesnt feed the families. :)
and no...please dont use the car theory as a competing analysis. It will make us look foolish. People who do so have no idea how a car works yesterday and how it worked today. Hey, I was a mean car-enthusiast-mechanic in my younger days ;) The analogy between both industries is the same. If systems and technology dont change, we would still be driving the carburetors of today. There would be no fuel-injection systems and there would be no embedded ECU chips in cars today...and Firedancer's screw in her tire would have caused the tire to explode (instead of deflating slowly) if tubeless tire technology did not come around today ;). Mechanics used to be able to service any carburetors in any car yesterday and if they stay "AS-IS", they would be home doing nothing and reading blogs all day ;). They would have to pick themselves up and learn the in-outs of fuel injection systems to remain relevant. And have you tried bringing your car to any "road-side" mechanic and ask them to tune your ECU chip because your idling speed is too low ? They will tell you that you can only bring back to the original vendor or to an "authorized" service vendor who have the necessary equipment to do so. Sound familiar in the software world ? ;) Like I said, this is how the businesses of today's world work. It just is.
...and of course, you can still maintain your T-Model or your 1953 Hand-made Merc Roadster. You just have to fly to (very) limited locations to get the spare parts or have them shipped to you and DIY and you can spend tonnes of money doing that if you wish...just like you can still use your VB6 or other legacy apps. You would just have to pay more to maintain it. The good thing is that your older software is NOT subject to frictional wear-and-tear as much as the mechanical parts of your old car and lets Thank God for that :)
I am not making any excuses to condone Microsoft's behaviour. The last I check, they are not paying me anything ;) I am speaking from a business entity's point of view and the need to do whatever it takes to survive...and do understand that the whole wide world is bigger than Microsoft or the software industry. The automotive, oil industry empire, etc, operates in pretty much the same way. I would advise any budding businessman or entrepreneur to read some business books (not technological ones) to understand how they are run.
Now if you forgive me for not replying back. I have spend more than enough time on this blog here. I think I have made my points clear. I hope you understand where I am coming from. There are still many books and courses I need to attend to upgrade myself because I still have a family that I need to feed.
Have a good day, fellas :)
People always talk from the business's point of view. That "all businesses are just trying to make money", and that seems to condone everything, even breaking the law or abusing their customers.
I don't buy that one bit.
Businesses need to be regulated so they don't become predatory. Fact : Microsoft broke the law.
I have no sympathy for businesses that tries to be predatory and manipulative. Business must be fair, if not, then it deserves to go bankrupt and die.
> Fact: Microsoft broke the law
Oh I am sure they did (and I dont dispute that) ... But not for upgrading VB6 to VB.NET, is it ? The last I check, this thread is about the end of VB6 ?
Let us make constructive arguments that relates to the context of the conversation and not argue for the pure sake of arguments. I am sure there are many places you can go to argue about the monopolistic means and ways of businesses.
Thank you.
Please forgive Obi. See, he is just a uni kid like we all were a long time ago. We took a while to understand how the world world, he would have his chance as well. Afterall, he is just looking for his paid job.
After a few years in the "industry" and paying things out of his own pocket and understanding how economics really works, THEN perhaps he would understand how some of the points we try to make.
Meanwhile. Ford doesnt support Model-T anymore, doesnt mean that you cannot drive it. Same with VB6. Just because Microsoft doesnt support VB6 doesnt mean that we cannot continually develop applications for it.
IMHO being an MVP of anything is an evolution. No one can remain on the top forever. You may be an MVP for VB6, but you may not know enough about .Net or others. Ending VB6 support not only makes these MVPs more valueable, but also forces the evolution of their knowledge.
Also, how many people you know use 0.X of any *nix kernel and still expect support ?
Also Obi, just so you know how important "business" is...trying not using your ATM card for a bit, or walking into a bank when the computer is down. ;-)
Cheers
The problem with closed-source software is, where are you going to get security fixes if it's not supported?
I can use a 0.x Linux kernel quite happily and if a problem arises I can patch it myself.
If there is a serious, critical flaw in VB6, where are all those people who run it on important systems going to get their fix from?
But of course again, this isn't my problem. This is the problem of those poor folks who are using VB6.
You want a solution to this? There are 2 options:
1. Upgrade to whatever "latest" junk Microsoft is peddling, and find yourself in the exact same position some years down the road when VB.net is no longer fashionable and profitable for Microsoft, and you're forced to upgrade yet again to fill the pockets of Supreme Overlord Gates.
2. Forget Microsoft and their expensive proprietary tools entirely and use a free, open source development utility and don't get left out in the cold.
Azizi:
I've been paying things out of my own pocket for some time now, and there's one thing I'v e learned is that businesses are out to take money from you and give you crap in return. This is especially prevalent in the IT industry, where stuff is expensive and crappy, and the businessmen involved are arrogant and greedy.
I have a monitor right now that's threatening to break down; occasionally it just goes blank for no apparent reason. It's over 1 year old, so I can't get any warranty claims on it, and if I took it back to the store the salesman would just look at me and say "I donno, buy new one". I can fix my 10-year old Sony stereo with no questions asked, but computer parts? I'm screwed.
The same goes for software. A lot of software businesses just churn out new versions for the sake of churning out new versions, and expect people to pay up and "buy a new one". Of course you can choose not to, but software by its very nature is eternally flawed, and despite not having "wear and tear", security issues just pop up. Software companies refuse to take accountability for this. Admittedly, it isn't just Microsoft that's guilty of this, but the IT industry as a whole. It's sickening. That's why I like open source, it's more transparent. Is it flawed? Sure it's software. But the freedom to be able to maintain it yourself if some corporate suit cuts you off is what makes it more worthwhile to me.
So ultimately, those MVP's have to decide. How many times do they want to go through this process of upgrading and upgrading and upgrading... and paying for every upgrade.
Obi,
Paying things out of your own pocket and working for your next meal is different.
The same business you so gloriously put down pays for our meal. So please, have some respect. Without those businesses making money, there will no employment and no wages. Salary and bonus after all depend on "profits" these companies make.
You fail to see that people expect things to improve, driving the market to produce cheaper products like TFT screens. At the same time, it becomes too expensive to maintain a product like for old parts. Why ? No money in it ? Should a manufacturer keep his production line open just so Obi can buy ONE part ?
My TV went bust after two years. I bought it for AU560. I was told that it would cost $300 plus to fix it. It would be cheaper to get a new and bigger model for a little bit more because the size of the TV that I have currently retails around AU400 depending on the model.
Moral of the story, its not economical to keep maintaining a production line for old parts making it expensive.
You claim to have the freedom to maintain your software. That freedom is only good so long as you are capable of maintaining it. Its been many years since I worked with electronics and still I wouldnt be able to fix a TV.
Same thing with software. Just because you could do it doesnt make it easy for others especially end users.
Microsoft may not support VB6, but there are enough VB6 compilers that still can be used to build and fix applications. Further more, most Microsoft products provide a level of backward compatibility to ensure that should you need to move to .Net, it wouldnt be so painful. And there is their responsibility.
Cheers.
Well I know one thing's for sure. Signs are showing people are tired of upgrading and upgrading.
Governments have started to ditch Microsoft in favor of OSS products such as linux, openoffice etc.
Signs are also showing people are moving away from Microsoft, even if they still believe in closed source.
China, Malaysia, just to name a few, possily Japan as well. Ignore at your peril, you like it, you hate it, you abhor it, OpenSource is here to stay.
The very same people who talks about adapting to changes in business environments are having difficulty accepting the change of wave to OpenSource.
God bless those who are dependent on closed source for their income, especially those from Microsoft. :D
OpenSource will not kill your bread and butter, but your stubborness and fear of change and the unknown will.
Business have never ONCE paid for any of my meals. NEVER ONCE. If businesses don't care about me, why should I care about businesses? All they know how to do is take my money. Sure, they can take my money, but if they give me crap in return they'll never get my respect.
Should a manufacturer keep his production line open just so Obi can buy ONE part ?
Sony can do it. They fixed my 10 year-old stero. Matsushita can do it. They fixed my 15-year old VCR. But the stupid computer parts salesman can't fix my 2 year old monitor. I expect better quality of service for my cash. I don't need to be apologetic towards businessmen.
You claim to have the freedom to maintain your software. That freedom is only good so long as you are capable of maintaining it. Its been many years since I worked with electronics and still I wouldnt be able to fix a TV.
I pay my TV repair guy to do fix my TV. Who do you pay to fix a broken VB6?
Microsoft may not support VB6, but there are enough VB6 compilers that still can be used to build and fix applications.
What if there's a bug in the compiler. What if security issues creep up in one of the libraries or runtimes. What do you do then?
I am not doubting that open source is here to stay. But I believe its will not stay here as the doomsday soothsayers predict that it will be the ice age for closed source products and services.
By the nature of the beast, people want upgrades and improvements along with the bells and whistles. And they are willing to pay for it. I have said it before and I say it again, there are a lot of people who are happy with Microsoft products or anything closed sourced. They will keep paying for their products.
Piracy on closed sourced products show as well how "popular" these products are. Even if one in 100 of these pirates end up as legitimate purchasers later, its still a lot of money.
So closed source is not going to die off either.
In the mean time, lets keep this as close to end of VB6 support shall we ?
Further more, most Microsoft products provide a level of backward compatibility to ensure that should you need to move to .Net, it wouldnt be so painful. And there is their responsibility.
And yet you have a horde of protesting MVP's. What gives?
I am not doubting that open source is here to stay. But I believe its will not stay here as the doomsday soothsayers predict that it will be the ice age for closed source products and services.
Nobody ever made such a claim. You're just projecting your own fears. On one hand you claim "the GPL is threatening businesses" and now you say "business will be all ok!". Which is it?
Obi,
Producing resistors and capacitors are different from producting IC boards. While one is easily replacable other is not. Even if you dont get that specific part for your monitor, you are screwed.
You do need to be apologetic towards businessmen because, they produce the parts that you use. They dont fall off skies. Market forces make it cheap enough for you to buy and replace them not businessmen. Businessmen produce based on demand.
The TV repair guy repairs TV, he did not manufacture it. And I dont think VB6 is ever "broken" that its considered unusable.
Runtime libraries and dll are still a separate subsystem. Should there be such a glaring hole in it, I am sure MS will send out a patch as part of its Windows to replace the defective dll.
Cheers.
Just because a threat exists doesnt mean businesses will die off. Some will some wont. Its always the smaller guys who get screwed anyway...
(So you have been keeping an eye on MIND...and here I thought you didnt care....)
Why shouldnt the MVPs complain ? Its their right. You go into epilepsy everytime someone mentions Microsoft, isnt that your right ?
Perhaps they fail to see how valuable they are going to become. But thats their choice...
I always keep an eye on the Microsoft propaganda machine, even if I'm not bothered to reply.
You do need to be apologetic towards businessmen because, they produce the parts that you use.
...which I'm paying for. I do not need to be apologetic towards anyone that takes my money. Really, this "businessman's superiority complex" is annoying.
Just because a threat exists doesnt mean businesses will die off. Some will some wont. Its always the smaller guys who get screwed anyway...
How exactly does open source screw "small businesses"? You'd think small businesses would benefit from a large OSS resource pool.
Neither does the business for making a profit. The primary responsibility of any business is to its shareholders. If you want to hold a grudge, hold it against those shareholders ( who many happen to be regular folks ) who expects returns for their investments.
In short, get a job, work and then come back and talk to us. Its that simple.
Obi,
I have rarely seen Microsoft ever "innovate", despite their ever-frequent claims they do. What MS churns out as "new" software is just some rehash of someone else's idea
I just want to point out that you maybe a little mixed-up between innovation and invention. When you say to take something and introduce it in a new way, or modify it, that's called innovation.
Invention is to create something for the first time. So, in your context about MS, they are being innovative (but may not be inventive) which is correct.
Innovation is good. It helps products to improve, create competition and allow consumers to benefit from it.
Oysterman dude,
God bless those who are dependent on closed source for their income, especially those from Microsoft. :D
I think you are over exaggerating here (and probably a little too religious). OSS will be around (and so does other software business model) but to put it that OSS is like a big tsunami killing all Microsoft practioners in its path - that's really crap.
Anyway, my take is that OSS 'may' kill the IT industry because IP is cheaper than a can of coke now. An IT university graduate can only fetch RM800. The better ones with 1 year additional training is going for RM1000. Why? Cos nobody is paying for software anymore, so why should they pay software writers?
And with more low cost companies exploiting OSS (you know how us Malaysians feel about free stuff), don't expect your salary to be any higher either.
I think you guys should do more for your own career and help other people instead rather than wasting so much time and energy hating a company.
Why? Cos nobody is paying for software anymore, so why should they pay software writers?
Well, where will they get their software from? Download it from the internet? I thought Azizi was going on and on about how OSS supposedly sucks because companies like to "have some butt to kick" (i.e., accountability and support).
You guys really do a great job of contradicting each other.
Obi,
Well, where will they get their software from? Download it from the internet?
You mean you don't know OSS-ware can be downloaded from the internet for free? C'mon!
You guys really do a great job of contradicting each other.
So what if there are contradictions (in your understanding)? We are both human beings having our own experiences and thoughts. Heck we even live in different countries.
I have my opinion towards a subject and he has his. Both maybe coming from different angles (contradicting in any) to view a subject.
If it amazes you, both of us even argued about how code should be written and how databases should be designed using Microsoft products. So what?
I think the problem with you is that you cannot respect human-beings as separate individuals with separate opinions (particularly for those who so happen to use Microsoft products). You just like to group everyone into one and start bashing.
You know what? No one start by hating OSS. But it is these continuous childishness and bashing that turns people off.
To better term it. I think OSS are great wares but I think the people pushing it needs a lot of work on their attitude.
It's your funeral guys. Hating OSS will not change the fact it is happening.
Those who think OSS will destroy the industry need to wake up and smell the roses and stop being brainwashed by Microsoft propaganda.
This is how business environment changes, and those who preaches adaptibility shall now demonstrate it.
Whether you like it or not, businesses are going for affordable OSS software.
If software developers cannot find a way to adapt around it, then they deserved to be disposed off from the Tech Sector, and that includes you Microsoft Apologists. Hehe.
Honestly, I don't see any OSS haters around here - only Microsoft haters. And because they can't direct their anger to Microsoft, they just direct them at normal people who use Microsoft products. That's just plain lame.
Whether OSS helps or destroys the industry, all of us may not be working that long to see it anyway. Everyone is just giving a piece of their opinion.
The world isn't just so small that it only has OSS and Microsoft. Most Microsoft-haters likes to ASSume that people who use Microsoft products don't know anything else.
Whether you like it or not, businesses are going for affordable OSS software.
Yes. Small businesses will use OSS to sustain but OSS isn't it all to a successful business. It is just technology. Their business must work.
And there will be people paying for Oracle, SAP and Microsoft products as well in the upper market.
If software developers cannot find a way to adapt around it, then they deserved to be disposed off from the Tech Sector, and that includes you Microsoft Apologists.
Adapting is not synonymous with using OSS. Business is the measure of success not OSS. Afterall, do you work for people who knows OSS or people who know how to exploit OSS?
Oyster dude, I don't know whether you are really an OSS contributor or just a plain freeloader using OSS software. At the end of the day it is not about what foreign company or weird source code concepts wins - It is about how we lived our lives outside of technology.
So what if there are people working on Microsoft products now and enjoying it? It feeds them and their families. What can you do about it cursing and ranting here?
yada yada and more yada from the Microsoft Apologists.
No matter what, they still demonstrate their fear of the unknown.
Too bad, no more government projects for you guys, because you are not OSS compliant. :-D
Too bad Mr. Oyster who happens to live inside his own shell as well as poor little Obi who I am convinced that he owns his very own coconut shell in USM dont happen to come out much.
You boys get your information based on the media. Fortunately for us, we share our information based on our experiences.
This time when I came down, I actually had the opportunity to meet some people who are government people and they were very interested in non open source solutions as well.
As with any clients, its not the technology that matters, its the solution. Thats what they are willing to pay for. Thats exactly why, countries like Australia they dont "mandate" the use of open source.
I dont see the problem here as of "microsoft apologists" but rather the maturity level of the open source FUDamentalists.
From their posts, Obi and Oyster ( and the usual gang in MIND ), show they are not true OSSers, more of bandwagon jumpers.
OSS is "in" now. So read up on it and fight a few wars. Thats about as good at it gets! Oh yeah, IF we are lucky, they would have done a couple of OSS projects in university. And "whalah" they are experts.
Real OSS users know, the concepts of OSS has been around for a long time. Heck all the project work that my company does we provide all the source code to the client anyway, whether they ask for it or not. Most clients couldn't be bothered.
At the end of the day its not about the technology you use but rather the quality of the solution that one can provide.
But of course, to the immature, all these would not make sense. They are used to downloading source code of the net and modifying them for their project work. Thats they version of "freedom".
Lets look at it this way. An average student, even one who does not get scholarship, has pda, cell phone ( mostly latest ), computer and every other expensive gadget like PS2 etc, eats at MacD's, watches movies at TGV, goes clubbing etc but cannot afford legitimate software license ?
Then they make up excuses that they see no value in it! In actuality its not about value, its about not wanting to pay for stuff. Thats all. Thats the same reason software piracy is big in Malaysia. When its free, there is so much value, when its not, its scum, dirt, useless, monopoly, capitalist... get the picture ?
So what does all this mean, it means that people expect things for free, because they dont want to part from their money. They want something from nothing. Its never about "choice".
Look another way, if "sharing" was so big as its proclaimed in open source, why are "shareware" developers so poor ? Afterall, their programs cost pittance. Heck people still copy PKZip and others even if its so cheap.
Because its all about money. Or not paying for something. Thats it. Its the typical Malaysian "kiasu"ness. Want everything for nothing.
That also brings us to the next thing. Why do people hate Microsoft so much ? Because they think its rich enough already. So they dont consider it as a business at all. Bill G is rich so he should give it away. But he does!!! He makes the money and gives into charities. Not free software.
When was the last time you gave to charity ? Even RM1 ? So people's biggest grouse is that Microsoft is not opening up the source code for Windows ( which they claim to be crap anyway ! ) - there can be 20 million forks of the OS everytime someone doesnt agree on something ?
So thats it. It all about a bunch of school kids who dont get how the working world works. Because they dont earn a penny the hard way. They think money grows on trees.
Know what, we have all seen this before. They loud kids, who think they know everything and more than everyone else. They usually settle down once they see how hard it is to make a living. Why ? We were once them.
Thats why I no longer consider threads like this intellectual discussion. All I see and symphatise a bunch of kids who dont get it. For their own sake, I hope one day they would.
BTW, I was told I can get LESS than RM900 for a grad. Perhaps Mr. Oyster should apply.
Well mister 'professional' you sure have a lot of time reading and answering blogs and forums with long replies.
Sorry man, I gotta get back to work, people are paying me tons of money for software development, and I have no problem with OSS or closed source products/dev tools.
I just find Microsoft Apologists amusing and pathetic, that's all. The very same people who screams about VB6 MVps can't adapt to changes are now worried about OSS eating into their careers.
I don't have a problem and don't need to worry because I don't buy the MS propaganda.
Business models and environments are changing, I am ready to face the changes and challenges, and not whine and oppose OSS or anything that threatens MS. ;-)
All I see are a bunch of MS crybabies pretending to call themselves professionals. Hypocrites are the best description to these sort of people.
Are you sure you aren't on Australian welfare? You sure seem to have heck of a lot of time writing repetitive rubbish from the MS propaganda machine. *LOL*
Well Mr. Oyster, if you must know I just opened my second company. I run a business so I manage my time well. Who knows I might come across your resume one day applying for a job. Please mark it as "SORRY ASS OSS FUDAMENTALIST" for the HR department.
I am sure your company would not take it lightly you spending your time surfing the net while they spend large amount of money (sic) on you.
It also shows your maturity level as well. Maybe a few more years in Malaysian IT begging for more salary might toughen you up. ;)
So how was bonus last year ?
I was told that Oysters have a very high flatulence factor. Now I believe it!
*LOL* company registrations costs peanuts, I can reg as many as I want and sit on my fat ass in Australia reading forums and posting FUD against OSS stuff, while living off Australian tax payer welfare like some self professed 'professional'. *hint* *hint*. ;-)
Really ? Shows us how much you know about companies... Really. You're always welcome to come and visit my office. I wont bite...
You on the other hand cause too much gas.
No thanks,I am not a fan of circuses. I've quit deriving entertainment from clowns. *ROTFLMAO*
Nah, you nearly had me falling off my chair in laughter when you wrote about your company "paying tons of money" for you for development. THAT WAS FUNNY!!! Seriously entertaining!
I'll spend my money on anything I please, and it's certainly not going to be Microsoft's inferior products when I can get better stuff from open source programmers. Your milage may vary, go ahead and use MS stuff if you like, but you may end up in the position of those MVP's who are stuck on VB6. Of course, that's not my problem. But don't patronise me for my choices, they are mine to make.
No my friend, it is you who patronise us for using Microsoft products. You belittle us for using closed source ( and open source ). You belittle our choice of working and making money for a living. You belittle the fact that our business happen to provide Microsoft solutions. All from the luxury of your university. All without knowing what its all about. So if there is ONE problem here, its you.
No my friend, it is you who patronise us for using Microsoft products. You belittle us for using closed source ( and open source ). You belittle our choice of working and making money for a living. You belittle the fact that our business happen to provide Microsoft solutions. All from the luxury of your university. All without knowing what its all about. So if there is ONE problem here, its you.
Well if I come across as belittling you for your choices, I apologise. You should be free to choose whatever you wish to use, MS or otherwise. It is still a poor choice in my opinion, but I reiterate that it is well within your rights to make that choice. Just like it is well within my rights to reject anything I feel is inferior.
If you like your OSS so much, shut the f*ck up and lock yourself into your hole and OSS to your hearts content.
Do go and put other peoples choice's down in their OWN BACKYARD. Go to some OSS forum or something and wave your flag, light candles and do whatever that rings your bell.
Dont come here and plug us based your limited and infantile knowledge of business and free enterprises. Whether you like it or not, we WORK and EARN money. How and why we do it is our business.
So Oyster and you should not come and piss in our rice bowls. You should know by now people over here dont share your short sighted views. So go somewhere its supported. Its not here.
The problem is you, YK and tons of wierd wankers come in and try to beat people into submission about OSS when we may not share your views. Plainly, we are getting tired of it. You guys keep preaching to those who do not share your views ( and in sites that that are not pro-OSS ).
From a business strategy perspective, you are targetting the wrong market! Of course, you are not gonna get customers!
In short, you are not providing value.
Fine, you're right. This is someone's blog, and it's not the appropriate place for a flamebrawl. I got carried away, and to Firedancer, sorry about this mess on your blog.
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